Service to Shelter: Ending Veteran Homelessness with Jatrice Martel Gaiter of Volunteers of America

According to the U.S. Department of Veteran's Affairs, there are nearly 37,000 homeless veterans in America. In this episode, host JT speaks with Jatrice Martel Gaiter, executive vice president of external affairs for Volunteers of America, about innovative initiatives that are transforming the lives of those who've served our nation.

As one of the nation’s largest and most-comprehensive human service charities, the VOA is making a difference across generations, serving veterans from Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, the Korean War, and beyond. But, their latest efforts involve tiny homes, cabins, and repurposed buildings.

Along with her personal journey growing up in a military family, Jatrice shares inspiring stories of collaboration with partners and local communities to overcome obstacles and provide safe, stable housing for unhoused veterans.

To learn more about the VOA's efforts, visit voa.org.

• Transcription

  JT 0:00

  Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the consequences of podcast. I mean, I've been speaking to this guest before we hit record and I was explaining how excited I am about this this interview. The more research I've done into this, this woman, the more excited I am. Today, I have the opportunity to sit down with the tree smartermail Gator, Patrice, thank you so much for taking the time to do this.

  Jatrice Martel Gaiter 0:21

  Oh, I'm so happy to hear to be here. And thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to talk and to share about things that are very, very close to my heart for which I have deep passion.

  JT 0:35

  I'm going to start off and there's a lot I want to get into about your history, why what you're doing is is so important to you. But I want to start off with some statistics. You correct me if I'm wrong in anything, I'm about to say 37,000 homeless veterans in America? Yes, approximately, am I correct?

  Jatrice Martel Gaiter 0:54

  Yes, you are.

  JT 0:58

  What's been done up until now, because I heard you talk about something that there's a lot of times there's an obvious thing out there. And the most important question to ask is what's been done leading to now? And what is the next solution? We already know what the problem is 20 something years of war. Everything that goes along with that mental health issues, addiction issues. PS, PTSD issues. What has been done to help the homeless Americans, veteran Americans up until what you're doing now?

  Jatrice Martel Gaiter 1:34

  Well, actually, people have begun to work on this. We found out that the most of the homeless were Vietnam veterans at one time. And right now we had three gender three war generations of veterans out there. We still have aging Vietnam veterans that are out there homeless are still struggling with their behavioral health issues. And these are now senior citizen veterans and homeless people. We have Afghanistan, we have Iraq. We have folks from the Korean War, we have so many generations that are out there together, they have different needs. One of the things that we started doing was trying to find housing for veterans who were on the street, trying to find services to help them. And I want to remind you that Volunteers of America has been helping veterans since the veterans of the Civil War. We're not new to this space at all. A lot of the issues that were prominent when we were founded in 1896. Were because of the PTSD and the injuries that veterans and their families were enduring as a result of having lived through and fought in a war. Now another thing I want to make sure everyone's clear is and we were talking about veterans homelessness, everyone thinks about one person, generally one man, a lot of women veterans are homeless. A lot of veterans with children and families are homeless. We have started to do more than just find empty apartments or housing for veterans, we have started trying to find innovative ways to find housing faster. Because most people most of your listeners aren't real clear that he can take five to seven years from concept to completion of housing units. By time you go through the zoning, the supply chain issues, getting the labor, all those things from pencil to paper to draw the design, till the day someone walks through the door can take five to seven years too long, that is too long to wait for new housing for veterans and their families. So we've done some pretty innovative things lately. One that I'm particularly proud of is in California, we took a former military base that had been decommissioned and turned it into housing for veterans and their families is called Blue Butterfly village. And it's outside of Los Angeles. And they're about 75 townhouses there. 25 are designated for women veterans and their children. And many of those women veterans were being reunited with their children because their children had been taken away because they were sleeping in cars, or they were struggling with abuse issues. And those are some of the kinds of innovative things we've been doing. Another one is tiny house. Now many of you know about tiny, tiny houses, and I've heard of them and think they're very cute, but we have people who are partnering with us to actually say come build a tiny house in my backyard. I've got tons of space back there. This is such a wonderful thing for me and my family to partner with you on. And so we have something called yard homes. Yard homes, is an organization that we partner with to build tiny homes. And we're also partnering with foundations and corporations. For instance, the Home Depot Foundation, one of Our most favorite partners, we partner with them in December to cover the housing payments for more than 500 veterans, including including veterans who are at risk of homelessness. So we paying the mortgage and the rent for 500 veterans for the month of December. Quite a Christmas present wouldn't just say, yeah, and another thing we're doing is working with mobile units, some trains from trains. We are fortifying these train boxcars, putting windows in them, making them lovely, and beautiful spaces for people. And then real quick, one more thing that we're doing. We have something called cabin in the woods. Some of the veterans come back from combat, they don't want to hear noise. They don't want to be around people. They want to own a place to go to sleep that safe every night, but not in multifamily housing, not in a neighborhood. And they really want to live out in the woods. So we went out and met with veterans who were living in the woods. We met with them on park benches and said, Where do you want to live? How can we do this? So we've built little cabins, literally cabins in the woods for veterans. And I'm so proud of my colleagues and our partners that we work with, who have come up with these innovative ideas to move it housing faster, and safer. And so that we can provide more housing for more people who sacrifice for our country and deserve to have a safe place to go to sleep at night.

  JT 6:37

  Well, it's funny, because you know, after you say that, it seems like a no brainer. We watch these shows on TV, we watch, you know some of these like a free spirited person that's either living in a van or they want these tiny homes, or they're making homes out of add a shipping containers. Why wouldn't we use these for veterans? I mean, the people that have served us it's, you know, you talk about a life of service. Why wouldn't we do this? For them? This seems like a not I mean, it's not a no cost, but a much smaller cost. And then timewise putting these things together. You know, when I look at five major locations, five different markets, you're doing this across the country. And I was looking at what Volunteers of America does. And one of the things I was most impressed by is partnerships. Anyone who knows a nonprofit world knows that man, it is like people, they put up these fences, because money when it comes down to getting donors, everyone gets a little territorial. And I get it, I get it. But what I've seen what you guys have done is you've partnered with other nonprofits you've partnered with, with other companies to make this thing come to a reality. What was that process like for you? How long did it take and how open were both the cities and the other nonprofits to working with you? Well,

  Jatrice Martel Gaiter 7:59

  in the nonprofit world, one thing that we know you can't do it alone, you need to partner you need to work in coalition's and you need to collaborate. Now, that always becomes difficult when you are competing for funding. We don't like to use the word competitor because many of us are competitors for the same dollars from the same people. But one area where people have really stepped up is the funding community, the foundations, the corporate foundations, the private philanthropists, they are now funding in ways that encourage partnerships and people collaborating on projects together. Some of the things that we've had to work with are zoning, zoning issues people's or something called not in my backyard NIMBY people who who think that oh, these are dangerous people, I don't want them near me. So we've had to work and do a lot of meetings are with communities with neighborhoods to explain who our future residents are. They are people that you are related to that are in your church that are in your neighborhood that you went to high school with. These are not people you need to be afraid of. These are people you need to embrace in your community, and be proud that you are making a place for our veterans to live safe lives. So that kind of work that people do people work is the most intense, and people know when you're authentic or not. So you have to take the time. You have to listen to people where they are, and try to give them information and reassurance and tell them the truth so that we can get to a place where we can provide more housing for veterans. Yeah,

  JT 9:43

  yeah. And you really touched on the next question, because if you said to anyone out there, hey, do you think we shouldn't provide more housing for homeless veterans? The immediate answers is yeah, of course. That's that's. But along with that, along with the homeless community, we understand And that, that it's not always just I don't have a place to live that there's usually things that go along with that. And I think that's where that not my backyard comes along. How have you gotten the trust from the local community? Where you can you can present this, Hey, this is part of becoming a healthier person get getting back their independence, that this isn't like you said, a dangerous person who, who quite possibly is well, not quite Pisces is at a very low point in their life. And this is part of rebuilding that. I mean, have you been completely rejected by some communities? I mean, what does that been like for you? Well, one,

  Jatrice Martel Gaiter 10:41

  since we've been around for over 127 years, we really depend on our reputation. And we are meticulous about our reputation, keeping our words to people in the communities, keeping our words to our clients and potential clients. And we often bring people, men, women and families who had been served and how through these kinds of housing to meet with people in the community, so that they can see, these people are like my relatives, like my brother in law, like my church member by the guy I went to high school with, they're not dangerous. These are people who are just looking for a safe place to live, who had some bad luck. And almost everybody has someone in their family who was struggling with alcohol, drug, depression, bipolar, all kinds of issues, that we try to keep a secret. But it's not a secret. So many people deserve and are working towards recovery. And not only that, but there's also recovery from PTSD. I think you mentioned that everyone talks about post traumatic syndrome. But this is very serious. And there's also something else that volunteers in America works on. And that's something called moral injury. moral injury is PTSD. That is deeper. It cannot be solved with medication or just talk therapy. It involves a community of support and help. It involves people who have emotional distress, guilt or shame that comes from participating or witnessing something that hurt other people. Oftentimes, people are suffering from moral injury and not understanding why did they feel like I am not worthy, I am not deserving. I am a bad person to brand yourself a bad person. Can you imagine how badly that hurts, that hurts everything, not just you, your family, your friends, your parents, everybody hurts because you're hurting so badly. So we've been doing a lot of work on moral injury. And this is something that people not only people in combat, but first responders, healthcare professionals, military veterans, all kinds of people are suffering from believing that they could have should have done something more done something differently, and that they hurt someone not understanding that they are hurting themselves by living with the shame and guilt and distress. Well,

  JT 13:18

  I think that's I mean, you hit the nail on the head that if anyone takes more than three seconds to think about what our veterans what our first responders do on a daily basis, you'll you'll start to realize that the what they're going through, whether that be PTSD, whether that be addiction, whether that be issues around any issues around mental health, that this is actually a normal response to having to deal with unnormal situations in their life. We are not designed to have to do these things. And when you do them in the service of your country, there should be an expectation that they there's something waiting for you that there's help for you, whether that be in housing, whether that be through the VA, however, that that looks. I would love to have an argument with somebody, I should say, a debate with somebody that that doesn't agree with having this in their local community. Because what like you said, with a moral injury, this is a license for many people. And you actually this is something that I don't know if it comes to the level of moral injury, but you've had your own experiences with a family member who's who's had undiagnosed PTSD.

  Jatrice Martel Gaiter 14:31

  I am glad that you brought that up, because I am the daughter of an army colonel. My father left high school and went to World War Two where he served in combat. He served in combat in Korea, and he served in combat in Vietnam. Needless to say, my father was very damaged, very hurt. I had behavioral health issues that were undiagnosed. And you didn't want anyone to know because you didn't want to hurt your career. living that life was very difficult. Inside of our home, there were a lot of secrets and a lot of shame, because you don't want to hurt an officer's career. So you don't tell. And on the outside, it all looks good. It all looks good. You're the daughter of an army colonel, a black army colonel. So back in the 70s, that was equal to being a general, people would stop him on the street, they were so proud of him. And two things are possible at the same time. It is possible to be a very distressed, violent, difficult person at home, and to be a military hero, a striver, a man of accomplishment, a man who was driven to help and just serve his country, his family, he was the youngest of 18 children, same mother, same Father, from segregated deep southern Louisiana. So this man was a hero. He was my father. But he also inflicted so much pain on himself and his children and his wife. Two things can be true at the same time.

  JT 16:29

  Has the work that you've been doing? Has this almost been? I don't know if therapeutic is the right word. But but you know, you get older and you don't you when you're a kid, you don't realize it, you don't understand that this person that I'm dealing with that can be very difficult. But, you know, we have these two different worlds. What does that experience been for you personally, a

  Jatrice Martel Gaiter 16:53

  couple of things. A couple of things. My father demanded perfection. My brother graduated from Harvard, I graduated from Syracuse Law School, my sister graduated from Carnegie Mellon, each one of us is published. So he demanded perfection. Perfection doesn't exist. It's too hard. It's too hard on everybody. So I have been able to release myself from that elusive goal of perfection, and allow myself to make mistakes, to forgive myself and to be human. Another thing is that this job has been cathartic for me. My passion of work with veterans, the passion of Volunteers of America, it was me in the right place at the right time. We published a book here called the momentum of hope. You can get it on Amazon. But it is the stories of people that have lived through incidents in their lives that caused them moral injury and how they're coping with it and trying to overcome it. And one of the things that I realized in helping to edit that book and listening to other people's stories is that learning about this has helped me to forgive my father to understand him to understand his pain, and how it manifested itself in our family. And it helped me to help my brother and sister to understand that as well. And and to be as proud of him as I can. The ROTC building a Southern University is named after him. He was an amazing mentor to younger soldiers coming through the military. And the military. Remember, back in the 50s, and 60s, it was not easy, it's still not easy, and especially for a black man in the military, commanding white soldiers from the South was not easy. So sometimes he took that pain out on his family. But we are stronger because of what we've gone through, because I believe all of us have come out on the other side. And we understand what it means for family. So when people look at Veterans, I want them to remember those veterans have mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, wives, children. And even though they may not be with the now, they still exist, and they want those men and women to get well and to come back home and come back to their family. They deserve that. And, you know, as far as being homeless, even as the child of a military officer, when we came back from Germany, I was born in Germany, by the way, then when we came back from his second tour of duty in Germany, we lived with our aunt and her husband in a small house in Washington, DC. They had four people in their family and we had five people in our family. I never thought of it until recently that there were nine of us living in a small brick house in Washington DC, because he was between assignments and we didn't have any place to live. Yeah, we live with another aunt in Pittsburgh for three months, because again, he was between assignments and we didn't have a place to live. So having a place to live, for these men and women who have served our country and come out hurt, let's help them get to the other side, and to be healthy and to be contributing, because that's what they want. We talk to these folks a lot, we meet with them. And they can tell you about how the services and the trust that Volunteers of America gave them looking them in the eye. When you see homeless people in the street, you don't look at them in the eye, you walk away as fast as you can, but to come in, and to be looked at as a human being, to be supported, to be given the direction for a job, for housing, for behavioral health, so many people are medicating their own issues. Instead of going to a psychiatrists, or to a therapist, or to a psychologist, they're going to a bottle or a pill or promiscuity to find relief from the pain that they endure.

  JT 21:13

  Yeah, these things manifest themselves, specially with family members. And I just want to go back one second, when you said I'm a I'm as proud as I can be, is beautifully said. I mean that. But when these things manifest themselves, in whatever way that we're self medicating, right, like, and you mentioned, we all have our poises. It's a very personal thing. For the for the loved ones in the family members. And it's very hard to see through that surface level that, hey, they're doing this, why don't they just stop? Why don't they just stop doing this thing, without understanding that this is a way of trying to feel good, because deep down, they're in a world of shit. So they're just trying to do the best that they can. But the vicious cycle is that usually brings shame. And now it compounds. So what do we do we go back to trying to feel good, and it's this vicious cycle. And when you take the military, you put people at a very young age, and in these positions, where they're responsible for whether it's a high value, you know, a monetary level, or if you're in charge of other people, and when you lose that foundation of being in service of being looked at and respected as someone in uniform, to, I would imagine the person that won't, people don't look you in the eyes anymore. That's got to be such demoralizing thing. And I think it's really beautiful to start to rebuild that foundation for this community, put them in a place, start that process that traction, and then give them everything they need. Is it really what I was getting to this, this isn't a single eight, we're gonna put you in a place to live in your world is better. That's it is. It's way more complicated than that as as you know. But what you guys are doing, even around the housing, it truly is. It's inspired me. I mean, I started think about like, what can we do here in Delaware? What because we know I know, it's a problem. We have got, we've got a lot of military people here. We've got a lot of military community that is suffering from whatever mental health issues and times that manifests into addiction. So I'm, I'm kind of an all of when I looked at Reno, Nevada, Durham, North Carolina, St. Paul, Minnesota, Los Angeles, Austin, all of the places that you guys are having an impact in this country. And I know this isn't just a hype thing for the trees, but I'm, I'm very impressed with what you guys are doing.

  Jatrice Martel Gaiter 23:59

  Well, I'm just going to add that one of the things that I'm so proud of that we do here at Volunteers of America is that we just don't deal in bricks and mortar. We deal in mind, body and soul. Because once you have you can't get sober, you can't get another job. You can't reconnect with your family until you have a safe place to go to sleep at night. Yeah, a safe place and not a bunk bed someplace. But a place that so many people talk about how proud they are. I have my own refrigerator. I have my own stove. I have my own couch. And look how I put these plants here. And I've tried to judge it up make it look like home to me. People are so proud when they have their own space. And that space is the beginning of a new life. And that's why we are so proud of Volunteers of America.

  JT 24:57

  You've mentioned those five markets Are there other ones in, you know, in the horizon that you are? You can announce yet. Is there any other cities where this looks like it might gain some traction as well?

  Jatrice Martel Gaiter 25:09

  Well, all over. We're looking at North Carolina, New York, Chicago. Oh, in Chicago, we have done so much. We have hoped man or place. We have three of them now, which are townhouse communities for veterans families. So in a lot of urban areas, and a lot of very rural areas whole Maine, where we have cabin in the woods, South Florida, where we have cabin in the woods. We have work in the Northern Rockies, in Oregon, and are all over the country. And we are pen to paper making plans for even new communities. For veterans and their families in new markets. We're in negotiation with quite a few now. Some in Texas, a lot of military veterans in Texas. Sure,

  JT 26:07

  sure. Yeah. Where did the idea come? As far as the tiny homes go? Or the the homes made made from from the train cars like where did this? How did this even come to be?

  Jatrice Martel Gaiter 26:25

  I think through coalition's people working and talking together about how long it's going to take to build the houses, and working with our partners in real estate and other housing organizations. There are a lot of homeless and housing organizations and trying to again, collaborate and come up with one of the issues is urgency. We can talk about this problem forever. But then when the solution is to wait five to seven years, this is not the answer to an urgent issue. And through veterans themselves, veterans who have come and talked to us, we don't just say, hey, veterans, this is what this is what you need. This is good for you. Right, right. We have veterans on staff. We have veterans in our community programs. We talk to homeless veterans through our programs providing services on the streets, and we have listened to them about what they want. And tiny homes cabin in the woods, refurbishing other hotels, we've taken other hotels, we have taken other abandoned apartment buildings. We even took a train station in Philadelphia and turned it into housing. So looking at buildings that we're not we're no longer use, or right now people are looking at office buildings. How can you turn office buildings that haven't been used since the pandemic into potential housing? One of the big issues is where's the plumbing enough plumbing in the office buildings, but we'll figure out a way around that as well.

  JT 28:08

  This call to serve is not just the veterans because you've been involved in lots of of nonprofits and in leadership roles. Was that something that was instilled from your father this sense of service? Or was this just something that kind of you were born with?

  Jatrice Martel Gaiter 28:23

  It started with my family. My my family were what they used to call strivers. They were black people in the 50s, who believed that if we worked hard enough, if we followed all the rules, if we made straight A's that racism would go away and we would live better lives. And we're helping our families and our race and moving past all the kinds of stereotypes about us, because we have to work twice as hard. Good enough is not good enough. So I came from a striving family. My mother became a teacher. She finished her college degree while my father was in Korea. Sometimes as little kids, we would go to class with her. Her teachers would let her bring her three children and sit in the back of the class that I would take care of my baby brother while she was in class as long as we were quiet. Sometimes we would have dinner and she would say I'm not hungry. Now I know she didn't have enough food. Her husband was in Korea. She's paying college tuition and buying books so that she can get a college degree that's striving. And what did she do? She taught kindergarten she taught little kids in very urban areas that kids who didn't know their own names kids who came from really desperate destitute households. My father as the youngest of 18. He was the most prosperous he was the one with a college degree. He had a master's in international relations from GW. He was the one that they all called on. His brothers and sisters, their children even their grandchildren as the youngest, he was the patriarch of the family, we always had someone staying with us someone even sleeping on the floor, we learned to help. And that to whom much is given much as expected, that whole idea of Service came through both of my parents. Now, when you talk about habits, service is a habit. But it can be something where I think those of us in nonprofits and those of us in the health helping and healing professions need to make sure that we remember the habit of self care, self love, well being for yourself. I was talking to my staff the other day, I said, please help me protect me from myself, I have got stuff saying yes to everything, and everybody, I'm exhausted, and almost feel guilty. When you are not exhausted. In order to be fresh, and good enough to help other people, you have to take care of yourself. And that is a consequence of habit. The habit of service is a good habit. And it involves passion and compassion. One of the things about the staff and volunteers of America, most of them don't see this as a job, they see this calling. And they go way beyond anybody's nine to five, they come to work with compassion, and they provide services with passion. But we're also trying to get them and other people in your listening audience. This is a good habit. But it's only as good as you are. And you can be your best when you take care of yourself. That's a hard habit. That is a hard habit to get to keep defied.

  JT 31:50

  Yeah, it will, in my mind, in my experience, to be the most effective at service, you got to have your stuff together, you have that be able to take care of yourself, because that best version of you is there for not just you and your loved ones, but then you can, you'll have more impact. But it's funny because it slips easy. You know, like we had a big speaking event. And you know, I host this this, this podcast, consequence of habit. We've got a nonprofit, we teach things around mindfulness, meditation, nutrition, working out. And I was so stressed leading into this event, I think the month, the month leading up to it, I was I was emotionally eating, not sleeping, doing everything contrary to what I'm supposed and I know it right. And I know it. So I understand what you're saying that sometimes we have to be protected from ourselves. Because you can definitely you can burn the candle on both ends. And especially when that mission that that thing you're passionate about is in front of you. But you got to understand that there's, there's limits to what we can do and, and burnout, I'm sure that we'll already know in the nonprofit world that there's a lot of burnout. So the

  Jatrice Martel Gaiter 33:06

  pandemic, the pandemic tested us, it tested us all. And one of the things about coming out on the other side is understanding that we can help more people, when we develop the habit of taking care of ourselves, getting enough sleep, getting nutrition, not drinking six cups of coffee a day, drinking a little water when you can a little things like that, to take care of yourself. And I'm trying to be more conscious of that. And to be intentional about that. My staff still says I have FOMO fear of missing out and I that I have to learn that things can go on without me. And that is okay if I'm not there. And I'm working with incredible colleagues and staff people that can step up and start holding the mantle pushing things forward. Yeah.

  JT 34:04

  Yeah. What do you think is, since you and I both are self described people pleasers or were at one time it's something where we're working through what's another one of your habits that's been, that's been one that's been either challenging for you or something you've overcome and really felt a sense of pride from perfection,

  Jatrice Martel Gaiter 34:26

  fear of making a mistake. When i i loved speaking and talking to people, but the amount of preparation I put into even the smallest amount of speaking is because I've always said if I fail, you won't be because I'm not prepared. I can I possibly I'll fail or not be interesting or lose the audience. But it won't be because I didn't prepare. And I want to learn how to take some of that pressure off myself. At this point in life. I know what I'm talking about. I've lived it. I've started for decades. I need to trust myself a little bit more that I don't have to stay up to one I am preparing for a 40 minute presentation tomorrow.

  JT 35:11

  Sure. Sure. Well I will say this You are the first person that is a that is actually requested information about me leading into an interview I said, Wait a minute, who's interviewing who here like what's, but I love it.

  Jatrice Martel Gaiter 35:27

  Oh, I'm wanting to know who you are. And it's very impressive who you are, you are very impressive. And JT, I hope you're listening to this as well. Because you are so full of energy, you are everywhere, people are gonna want to talk to you more and hear from you more, you got to take care of yourself, JT, you keep up that happened. I

  JT 35:44

  appreciate it. I'm gonna I appreciate that very much. Just Is there anything else you want to you want to make sure that we hit anything else you want to cover? Well, I

  Jatrice Martel Gaiter 35:54

  think it's important for when we talk about the consequences of habit, I think it's important to have other people in your life, that make it possible for you to be motivated and to be effective in the things you're passionate and compassionate about. Like your listeners are, your other guests are. And I have found that in life, there are three kinds of friends that I need. People always talk about having a kitchen cabinet, there are three kinds. One, I need someone when something is hurting me or I'm upset or I'm depressed or, or feel like I failed to something I need someone I can go to who's going to pamper me and soothe me and make me a cake and say, Come on baby. Let me talk come on over here. And let me talk to you. You need this boy, let's go out to dinner. Then there's the person who's going to call you accountable? Who's going to make you accountable? Who's going to say, okay, to trees that didn't go well? What's your game plan? How are you going to fix it? What are you going to do differently next time? What lesson did you learn? And then you need that third person who's just going to listen, you need to be heard. You need to be able to talk through what went wrong. Why are you blowing at this up into much bigger issue than it is because everybody else is going to forget about it in two weeks, except you. So you need someone who's going to listen. So I believe that everybody needs to have those three people in your life. And they are not the same person who's going to hug you want to feed you and show you love, who's going to hold you accountable and make you get back up and with a better plan. And who is going to listen to you that's so hard nowadays, to find someone that you can talk to confidentially, who will listen to you. Listening is almost a lost skill. So I think that those three people are a habit that everyone should for, find those three people, get them in your life, and know who they are.

  JT 37:59

  I couldn't agree more. I literally just had this conversation last weekend with somebody. And I, I could be generalizing this too much. But But I know for young men there's a sense of accountability your your feet being held to the fire, and not just hearing somebody say no, you're right, and everyone else is wrong, right? We we need that we and and our skin has to be thick enough to be able to handle that. And if you've got a friend that can do that in any you know, in a healthy way that motivates you, or you hold on to that person because we need more of that and also the compassionate person. I think the hardest person to find is the last one you mentioned. That's one that can just sit there and listen. Because a lot of times we work these things out we just gotta it's as you you know, verbalize them. You start talking about things. It happens to me all the time I go as I'm telling somebody, I go wait a minute, I just figure it out in your mind. We can start talking now. I just I had to, I had to say it because it's been rattling around in my head. And I don't come up come up with the answer. But once it comes out, we get all right. We've kind of worked through this. So that's that's a that's a tricky one to find their one

  Jatrice Martel Gaiter 39:08

  point you made that's very important is I think it's especially important for men to find that women tend to be more verbal, tend to be more willing to be vulnerable, and try to find that they all they don't understand is different people one person can not be all those things to you. But I think that men letting themselves understand I need someone to pamper me today. I need someone to listen to me today. And I need someone to help me figure out a new strategy to get through this.

  JT 39:41

  You know, something I I can't believe I didn't mention this. shirts. I got into the Air Force in in 2000. Right. And I've got ADHD and I struggle at barely got through high school. I mean I truly struggled. And I go to the military and I So and and for whatever reason, it was the first time in my life, I said, Man, I got this thing licked like I can, I can do all these amazing things. I'm getting these awards, I'm gay, I'm getting promoted before I shouldn't be this is fantastic. And that was structure and accountability. And then I got out. And I and I got out. When I say that my my world crumbled, and I was not very far off from from needing a place to stay myself, I was crashing on friends, couches and things like that. My point is that that is a, that wasn't a huge block of time, from the time I got out till I kind of reached that rock bottom. And that's because I didn't have the structure. I didn't have accountability. And I was suffering at the time I was I was in active addiction and alcohol. And, and as we're sitting there, I'm preparing for this interview, and I'm thinking about questions to ask. And it never even dawned on me. Like, wait a minute, I was I was, I was six months away from the exact same thing. You know. So it's, it's an interesting thing. And it was really when we're talking about accountability is what? And for me, the accountability was just structure. It was just I needed that structure. I think that's why a lot of people that may even have issues. It's that structure that keeps them grounded, it keeps them in place, and it keeps them doing, you know, I've had to gentle Greg Martin, no. Major General Greg Martin, he, he was a early guest. He was the president of the I'm gonna mess this up. It's the largest military college there in DC. And he suffered from bipolar. And he didn't realize it. Until, until he lost his job. And now he was a Major General at the time. A national military, it doesn't matter, but. And it was it was the military that kept him. My point is kind of kept a lot of things together for a while. Because it was you know, you have you have expectations, you have to do things you have to get up. You have to, there are some great habits, but not all of them are fantastic. But yeah, so that was my point is is that this actually, as I'm in this conversation, I'm realizing that this is actually hits probably way closer, and maybe that was a subconscious thing for me kind of push this house.

  Jatrice Martel Gaiter 42:27

  And the military works for a lot of people. There's accountability, you know what you're supposed to do next. One of the things about my job is identifying problems, and then coming up with a new solution. So so many times people hand me a blank piece of paper and say, fix this. I'm like, wow, you think I can do this? How do I do this? Right? But I know that without structure, the first thing to do is go find somebody who's already done it. Somebody who's thought about it, somebody who's written about it, and figure out how to launch from there. Someone has thought about this before?

  JT 43:06

  Sure, sure. Well listen to trees, I appreciate everything. I said, Everything you're doing just your career and service, you taking the time to do this. I'm sure you're very busy woman there in DC. But thank you so much for taking the time, we're gonna make sure that there's links to everything we spoke about to include your book that's going to be in the show notes as well. If anyone wants to volunteer, they want to donate, they want to get involved. How do they go about doing that

  Jatrice Martel Gaiter 43:39

  come to our website@www.voa.org. That's V as in Victor. Oh, a.org. Very easy website. Go there. And you can donate especially now at the end of the year, this is going to be a cold winter. People need support and help. And believe me, we invest your contributions well into the lives into the future, into the well being of veterans, seniors, children, and people who are hurting, and people who are not healthy. So please, remember, Volunteers of America voa.org And JT I have to say thank you. I'm so glad I met you. You are so inspiring. The energy, the youth, the willingness to question and talk to people like me, thank you so much.

  JT 44:38

  Thank you. All right, keep doing what good work to trees and let's let's keep these conversations. Absolutely.

  Jatrice Martel Gaiter 44:44

  We will talk again. Bye. Awesome.

  JT 44:48

  Awesome. Well do me a favor to stay on one second. I'm going to hit stop and it's going to do it's uploading